Yes, some people left the coc AND Christianity altogether - pretty drastic, but maybe not so much when you remember that the coc defines 'Christians' as 'coc-members', so if you leave the coc you are also 'leaving GOD' (or so we were told) so why not?
At any rate -
Today, my husband and I (on vacation) went to a Reform synagogue and found ourselves attending a bar mitzvah. Very talented and composed young man, all of 4 ft 6 in tall MAYBE. He led the whole service, responsive readings in two languages, announcements, prayers and chanted three of the four Torah portions (Reform synagogues frequently only have four 'aliyot' instead of the usual 7 on shabbat) AND the reading from the prophets (Ezekiel in his case) also in two languages - sentence by sentence translation -
quite a feat!
Ask about Judaism
Ask about Judaism
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Ask about Judaism
However, I didn't start this thread to talk about Ari whatsit's bar mitzvah, but to give some very general information, and also answer any questions. I'm also hoping this thread will serve as an example for OTHER members to use to start a thread on THEIR 'new paths'.
Here's something I found recently online, written about the three different Hebrew words that are often translated as 'soul, spirit' in English - they aren't quite what most non-Jews think of when they hear the word 'soul'. Here you go: the words are: ruach, neshama, nefesh
Note that the quote above is from a layperson, not a rabbi or scholar, which means this is the COMMON understood meaning among standard reasonably educated Jewish 'laypersons' but it may not be 'technically accurate' in some respects. I still find it interesting that this person chose to use 'dimensions of the soul' and apparently didn't think of 'parts'. Nice (and very telling) detail!
Here's something I found recently online, written about the three different Hebrew words that are often translated as 'soul, spirit' in English - they aren't quite what most non-Jews think of when they hear the word 'soul'. Here you go: the words are: ruach, neshama, nefesh
In Genesis 1, a 'ruach' of God is described as present at creation. Many Christians assume this is 'the holy spirit' and that the holy spirit is separate and apart from (or separate but part OF) God. That isn't the Hebrew connotation - the 'ruach elohim' (spirit of god) is IDENTICAL with God, who is 'one' and without 'parts'.They can basically all be seen as words that mean soul. They can also be seen as the 3 dimensions of the soul. Ruach means wind, breath, mind and/or spirit. It is God-given and is described as going in and out through the nose. Ruach Elohim is the divine spirit aka God. Ruach is kind of the wind of the souls which goes back and forth between the physical and the spiritual. Neshama is also breath. It is the thinking part of the soul–it’s the most spiritual piece. Death is ‘yetziat haneshama’ or the exiting of the spirit from the body. Nefesh comes from the root of the word for rest–nefesh is the resting soul, or the more physical component…
Note that the quote above is from a layperson, not a rabbi or scholar, which means this is the COMMON understood meaning among standard reasonably educated Jewish 'laypersons' but it may not be 'technically accurate' in some respects. I still find it interesting that this person chose to use 'dimensions of the soul' and apparently didn't think of 'parts'. Nice (and very telling) detail!
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Ask about Judaism
Unlike the Greeks, which divided the world and life into a 'spiritual' or 'higher' part, and a lower or 'physical/material' part, to the Jews, everything is 'one' - that is, the Greeks saw a living person as a material body in possession of a 'higher/spiritual' immortal soul.
To Jews, a living person is an indissoluble SINGLE entity comprised of a living body AND a soul, which, while 'spiritual', is neither 'higher' NOR is it 'immortal'. Instead, it is a 'life force' delivered by God and returning to God at mortal death. Whether 'the soul' continues as an identifiable individual entity or not, is solely up to God.
To Jews, a living person is an indissoluble SINGLE entity comprised of a living body AND a soul, which, while 'spiritual', is neither 'higher' NOR is it 'immortal'. Instead, it is a 'life force' delivered by God and returning to God at mortal death. Whether 'the soul' continues as an identifiable individual entity or not, is solely up to God.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Ask about Judaism
That would make Jews not Trinitarian.agricola wrote: To Jews, a living person is an indissoluble SINGLE entity comprised of a living body AND a soul, which, while 'spiritual', is neither 'higher' NOR is it 'immortal'. Instead, it is a 'life force' delivered by God and returning to God at mortal death. Whether 'the soul' continues as an identifiable individual entity or not, is solely up to God.
Any comments about the Church of Christ and Trinity. Seems to me that they stomped around it without admitting it? Other phases I did not find in the CoC is the Physical Kingdom of the Messiah on earth. You need Jehovah Witnesses fro that one. Rapture is another one. But then I only know the church of 1950s and 1960's. Since then the discipling movement hit known as the Boston Movement. It also was known in evangelical churches. The movement was bigger than just the CoC. Also the abortion mess hit. I remember the walk of shame that some girls experienced. This Church used to hold up a pregnant girl as an example as what not to do. I see that as an ultimate evil. Their sexual sin was less worse than the gossip that followed. That attitude had to change so ladies would not abort secretly. It's funny how what goes around comes around.
Re: Ask about Judaism
Yes, decidedly not Trinitarian!
God is 'one' and 'uniquely one' and 'one' is simply the way to put it but that in itself as a descriptor is inadequate....Because if you count something you are implying that there is more than 'one' of them, and there is not only 'one' god but there is ONLY God....
That level of discussion gets very deep, very fast.
God is 'one' and 'uniquely one' and 'one' is simply the way to put it but that in itself as a descriptor is inadequate....Because if you count something you are implying that there is more than 'one' of them, and there is not only 'one' god but there is ONLY God....
That level of discussion gets very deep, very fast.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Ask about Judaism
No disagreement. The Trinitarian argument is decidedly Christian. If Jesus was God how is it possible for God to die? It's a real brain torquer. A Jew might cite many messiah pretenders to the throne. I am aware that their have been others. Christianity is both logical and not logical at the same time. Miracles by their very nature cannot be logical. I am not sure that logic really exists except within a defined world. God exists perhaps outside of three or four dimensions. I don't think that for God time really exists. It does exists for man because he has a finite life span in this world. Many formulas in physics require time. The formula for acceleration requires time. There are many things that humans cannot perceive directly. I have worked with infrared light and even built circuits that can see it. A human cannot. Fiber Optic Communications work this way.agricola wrote:Yes, decidedly not Trinitarian!
That level of discussion gets very deep, very fast.
Re: Ask about Judaism
Generally speaking, a good Jewish education focuses on WHAT to do, with a brief nod toward 'why', and not a lot of deep analysis into the Nature of God. But there are certain people (and always have been) that spend their lives on that sort of study, and material is available for those who want it. Study is ALWAYS available and it has been said that, for Jews, study IS 'worship' and that is very nearly true. Certainly every single 'religous service' has an element of 'learn this' incorporated into the liturgy of the moment. It is a point of some pride that there is ALWAYS more to be learned. Talmud study is often simply called 'learning' and the word 'talmud' is actually (things 'to be learned').
the hold of tradition and millenia (literally) of practice and self-identity is very strong.
Judaism is a tribal faith and a tribal matter in a very real sense. It is an 'open' faith in that non-members are permitted to join and enjoy full membership status, but it is still very much a 'born that way' community. Shared family, shared customs, shared history, language AND belief make for a strong enduring bond.
Judaism or 'being Jewish' is a lot more than 'religious faith', in other words. More than I realized when I was studying for conversion.
the hold of tradition and millenia (literally) of practice and self-identity is very strong.
Judaism is a tribal faith and a tribal matter in a very real sense. It is an 'open' faith in that non-members are permitted to join and enjoy full membership status, but it is still very much a 'born that way' community. Shared family, shared customs, shared history, language AND belief make for a strong enduring bond.
Judaism or 'being Jewish' is a lot more than 'religious faith', in other words. More than I realized when I was studying for conversion.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Ask about Judaism
The council of Nicea 325 AD dealt very much with the nature of Jesus. That won't be a Jewish issue until the second coming in which I expect to dovetail into Jewish scriptural messianic references. His first coming was rather lacking in the messiah sense from a Jewish perspective. I do not believe it will be that way later on. I do not know how Jews focus on this issue. I suspect it is in the background. I asked a Jew once "Aren't you looking forward to rebuilding of the temple." " He said, "I don't know." When you consider two thousand years of synagog worship the whole power base would shift. The reinstituting of animal sacrifices would cause trouble. The nationalism that would follow would really change things. The Dome of the Rock is a concideration. WOW The scope of this is God thing! Time will tell.
Re: Ask about Judaism
agricola wrote:Yes, decidedly not Trinitarian!
God is 'one' and 'uniquely one' and 'one' is simply the way to put it but that in itself as a descriptor is inadequate....Because if you count something you are implying that there is more than 'one' of them, and there is not only 'one' god but there is ONLY God....
That level of discussion gets very deep, very fast.
I remember hearing in a COC sermon that the phrase, "Let us make man in our image..." from Genesis was evidence for the Trinity since the speaker is using the plural pronouns (and, I guess, since he's speaking to someone else besides himself).
My first question would be: are these words plural in the original Hebrew?
My second would be: what is the current Jewish interpretation of this in light of the "one God" belief?
Lev
Re: Ask about Judaism
Well, Lev - first of all, EVERYTHING in Torah must be interpreted in the light of everything ELSE in Torah, so from the start of things, no Jew would EVER consider that the 'let us' phrase implied anything at all about a plurality of gods or a divisible god, or anything like that at all, because there are so many other statements in Torah which emphatically tell us that God is, always was, and is invariably, 'one'.
That said - since the 'let us make man in our image' is certainly present in the Hebrew original, there are naturally a variety of interpretations about what that phrase means.
1 - God is speaking in the Royal Plural (as Queen Victoria put it once: 'We are not amused')
2 - God is metaphorically speaking to the assembled heavenly court, because inventing humans is a serious Big Deal, and all rulers would naturally consult with their court before taking a MAJOR position (this was popular in the Middle Ages).
3 - (and my favorite) God is speaking to all created life - because who else was around for God to be talking to, after all? The life on earth - and what is man, but something earthy and partaking of the same life as all other life on earth, with that little bit 'extra' that makes mankind 'different' - 'the image of God' of course CANNOT be our humanoid FORM, or anything physical at all, because God doesn't HAVE a 'form' for us to be an 'image' of. So whatever 'image of God' may mean, it can't be our physical selves.
there, three possibles, of which I personally much prefer number 3.
That said - since the 'let us make man in our image' is certainly present in the Hebrew original, there are naturally a variety of interpretations about what that phrase means.
1 - God is speaking in the Royal Plural (as Queen Victoria put it once: 'We are not amused')
2 - God is metaphorically speaking to the assembled heavenly court, because inventing humans is a serious Big Deal, and all rulers would naturally consult with their court before taking a MAJOR position (this was popular in the Middle Ages).
3 - (and my favorite) God is speaking to all created life - because who else was around for God to be talking to, after all? The life on earth - and what is man, but something earthy and partaking of the same life as all other life on earth, with that little bit 'extra' that makes mankind 'different' - 'the image of God' of course CANNOT be our humanoid FORM, or anything physical at all, because God doesn't HAVE a 'form' for us to be an 'image' of. So whatever 'image of God' may mean, it can't be our physical selves.
there, three possibles, of which I personally much prefer number 3.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.