Agricola, what is Ex 23:2 in the Jewish Bible found in the Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox Bible? My reading says "Do not follow the crowd..." not "After the majority incline.."
This is not a criticism at all. Just wondering how the verses are potentially so different in translation from one another.
Ask about Judaism
Re: Ask about Judaism
The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it.----Karl Marx
Re: Ask about Judaism
Ex 23:2 - 3
You shall neither side with the mighty to do wrong - you shall not give perverse testimony in a dispute so as to pervert it in favor of the mighty - nor shall you show deference to a poor man in his dispute.
It's part of a longer passage about doing the right thing, without favoring your friends or unfairly going against your enemies.
It includes 'You shall not subvert the rights of your needy in their disputes. Keep far from a false charge...do not take bribes...you shall not oppress a stranger...
You shall neither side with the mighty to do wrong - you shall not give perverse testimony in a dispute so as to pervert it in favor of the mighty - nor shall you show deference to a poor man in his dispute.
It's part of a longer passage about doing the right thing, without favoring your friends or unfairly going against your enemies.
It includes 'You shall not subvert the rights of your needy in their disputes. Keep far from a false charge...do not take bribes...you shall not oppress a stranger...
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Ask about Judaism
The reference to 'after the majority incline' isn't sourced from that, though, as far as I remember.
It is in reference to courts deciding on the law, and I THINK is in Deuteronomy. I'd look it up but I am literally on my way out the door for work.
It is in reference to courts deciding on the law, and I THINK is in Deuteronomy. I'd look it up but I am literally on my way out the door for work.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Ask about Judaism
I do see that the story references Ex 23:2, and I SUPPOSE you could derive 'after the majority decide' from it - it says to be FAIR, just like we say 'justice is blind'.
Here's a different translation -
My best guess is that the guy writing the commentary (who added that verse cite) made a mistake of some kind. I'll see what I can find out. There are a LOT of verses about 'judging' and 'deciding' in the Torah!
Here's a different translation -
But it doesn't seem to me to have the meaning suggested.Do not follow the majority when they do wrong or when they give testimony that perverts justice.
My best guess is that the guy writing the commentary (who added that verse cite) made a mistake of some kind. I'll see what I can find out. There are a LOT of verses about 'judging' and 'deciding' in the Torah!
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Ask about Judaism
Deuteronomy 1 (Moses speaking)You are not to show favoritism when judging, but give equal attention to the small and to the great. No matter how a person presents himself, don't be afraid of him; because the decision is God's. The case that is too hard for you, bring to me and I will hear it.'
Deut. 17“If any case is too difficult for you to decide, between one kind of homicide or another, between one kind of lawsuit or another, and between one kind of assault or another, being cases of dispute in your courts, then you shall arise and go up to the place which the LORD your God chooses.
"
Deut. 25If there is a dispute between men and they go to court, and the judges decide their case, and they justify the righteous and condemn the wicked,
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Ask about Judaism
This is actually pretty close - 'the Torah is not in Heaven, but it in our possession'. It isn't 'too hard' and it doesn't take divine intervention of trips across the ocean - it is 'close'.In frustration, Rabbi Eliezer finally cries out, "If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, Heaven will prove it." From Heaven a voice is heard, saying, "Why are you differing with Rabbi Eliezer, as the halakha is in accordance with his opinion in every place that he expresses an opinion?" Rabbi Joshua responds, "It [the Torah] is not in heaven" (Deuteronomy 30:12). He responds in this way because the Torah, which was given by God to mankind at Sinai, specifically instructs those who follow it that they are to look to the received Torah as their source and guide. The Torah says, "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?' Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?' No, the word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe" (Deuteronomy 30:12-14).
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Ask about Judaism
(from a wikipedia entry on the oven of Achnai story)Rabbi Joshua's response then expresses the view that the work of law is a work of human activity, and that the Torah itself supports this legal theory. The Torah is not a document of mystery which must have its innate meaning revealed by a minority, but it is instead a document from which law must be created through the human activity of debate and consensus. Rabbinic literature was capable of recognizing differing opinions as having a degree of legitimacy (Yer. Ber. 3b), yet the community remains united and the ruling which is ultimately followed comes through proper jurisprudence. As such, Rabbi Eliezer's miraculous appeals represent a differing legal theory and were outside of proper jurisprudence which meant that they would not be followed. Instead the Jewish community followed the ruling of the majority in this issue and in others. The Talmud asks how God responded to this incident. We are told that upon hearing Rabbi Joshua's response, God smiled and stated, "My children have triumphed over Me; My children have triumphed over Me."
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Ask about Judaism
A couple of references..."The Rabbis, the oven and the ostracism". The Times of Israel. Retrieved 2017-09-16.
Englard, Izhak (1975-01-01). "MAJORITY DECISION VS. INDIVIDUAL TRUTH: The Interpretations of the "Oven of Achnai" Aggadah". Tradition: A Journal of Orthodox Jewish Thought. 15 (1/2): 137–152. JSTOR 23258495
The oven story is part of a larger story of the excommunication of R. Eliezer, the death of Rabban Gamaliel, and the intervention of Ima Shalom (Eliezer's wife and Gamaliel's sister).
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Ask about Judaism
For further reading -
Not in Heaven: The Nature and Function of Jewish Law
Eliezer Berkovitz
h**ps://smile.amazon.com/Not-Heaven-Function-Contemporary-Thought/dp/9657052556/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1525840196&sr=8-1&keywords=Not+in+Heaven
Not in Heaven: The Nature and Function of Jewish Law
Eliezer Berkovitz
h**ps://smile.amazon.com/Not-Heaven-Function-Contemporary-Thought/dp/9657052556/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1525840196&sr=8-1&keywords=Not+in+Heaven
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Ask about Judaism
I knew the story of God laughing because the rabbis were willing to argue even with him. In one version didn't Elijah come down and the rabbis asked Elijah how God reacted and he said God just laughed.
The stories illustrate a good point though not in the Bible per see. God will allow us to use our judgement and tell when a certain command should apply or when maybe it shouldn't. For example, Abraham arguing with God over Sodom and God promises to relent if a few righteous are there, how Lot is told to flee to a certain place but he argues to be allowed to go to Zoar, Moses argues about his abilities and so is allowed to take Aaron with him to Egypt, David eating old Shewbread instead of going hungry. Practically the whole books of Ecclesiastes and its time for peace, time for war, time to embrace time to refrain from embracing, all principles we have to use our own wisdom to know when they should apply.
The stories illustrate a good point though not in the Bible per see. God will allow us to use our judgement and tell when a certain command should apply or when maybe it shouldn't. For example, Abraham arguing with God over Sodom and God promises to relent if a few righteous are there, how Lot is told to flee to a certain place but he argues to be allowed to go to Zoar, Moses argues about his abilities and so is allowed to take Aaron with him to Egypt, David eating old Shewbread instead of going hungry. Practically the whole books of Ecclesiastes and its time for peace, time for war, time to embrace time to refrain from embracing, all principles we have to use our own wisdom to know when they should apply.
The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it.----Karl Marx