My current state of belief

[kneedeep]

I don't post often, but wanted share an update. After 3 years of research and deliberation, I have decided that I am no longer Christian. I don't accept the bible as divinely inspired. Rather its an anthology written by a primitive culture describing reality as they understood it. I realized that my reasons for assuming that a god inspired these books were at best fallacious. I was engaging in a double standard. I had a higher standard of evidence for claims in other holy texts, but with the bible those standards went out the window. I find it problematic that a god requires people believe in it with only relying on what others have written and taught about him. He seemed more demonstrable in the OT and then tapers off the NT. In 2019, he's no where to be found. We at best go off clergy, apologists, personal testimony, church, and of course the bible.

When it comes to the New Testament, the history surrounding is very conflicting. On one hand there is research claiming that the gospels are eye-witnesses testimonies. However, there is scholarship stating that these testimonies are anonymous and were written several decades after this alleged resurrection happened. Only 7 letters of Paul are claimed to be authentic. The epistles of Peter & John are possible forgeries as well. Not to mention the conflicting theologies between Paul and Jesus. Also the after a careful reading from Genesis-Revelation there are numerous contradictions and moral issues with the stories. Some aren't faith shattering and yet some that are. Ultimately I find the concept of substitution sacrifice to be immoral, which is a running theme from OT to NT.

I'm not saying anything new here. I'm sure many of you know this stuff. Some of you have kept the faith in spite of it. I won't get into specific issues with the bible and believing in the supernatural because this stuff has been repeatedly discussed here. Watching and reading many debates had shown that this matter isn't settled. In lieu of that, I can't honestly just say that bible is true.

If any of you read my earlier posts, you will see a completely different tone. At this point I am trying to figure who or what is God. I am not atheist, but still seeking information. I don't believe that the god character in the bible is the true god. Recently, I wrote a withdrawal letter to elders telling them my beliefs have changed. Also told my mom last night. At this time I'm trying to deal with whatever fall out comes from it. I will admit that coming to this conclusion has been very difficult. However, I hope to get closer to the truth.

[Cootie Brown]

I think it’s a testament to the power of indoctrination that religion continues to have billions of adherents in the 21st Century. The overwhelming evidence confirms that all God’s and religions are man made, but an indoctrinated mind is incapable of processing information that challenges an emotionally held belief logically or rationally.

It seems that the individual believer must first develop doubt on their own before they are willing to examine religion’s beliefs and dogma critically with an open mind. I’ve been studying and researching the historical origins and evolution of both the Bible and the Christian faith for more than a decade now.

Congratulations on your new found enlightenment. I have found life without religion much more enjoyable. I think you will too. John Loftus is a former Church of Christ preacher, apologist, and University Professor, with multiple graduate level degrees in theology. He’s an atheists now. I’ve been watching some of his YouTube videos recently where he tells why he left the faith.

His reasons for leaving the faith are pretty much the same as most people that leave. The evidence against Christianity being true is overwhelming. Ex Christian.net is a site you might find both helpful and enlightening. I go by Geezer over there. Again, congrats on your new found freedom.

[kneedeep]

Thanks Cootie! It's crazy how things change. I'm reading the Outsider's Test for Faith. Great book! I like how John Loftus provides objections to the OTF and his rebuttals to them. I was already doing this test without realizing it. Reading the book confirms that I'm on the right track. I've came cross some pretty good ones (Bart Ehrman, Richard Elliot, Richard T. Hughes, Israel Finkelstein, etc), but the one book that really broke things apart was the Human Faces of God By Thom Stark. He deals with hard passages and refutes the idea of biblical inerrancy. I'm surprised that given his knowledge, he remains a Christian. In addition, listening to Atheist Experience shows many other youtube atheists pushed me further into skepticism. I also listened to some apologists videos- William Lane Craig, Kyle Butt (coc), David Meyer (coc), Matt Slick, and plenty others. There is a YouTube channel called New Covenant Group. The theologian who runs that channel converses with atheists. I felt I gave it a balanced view.

It boils down to evidence. There's so many way to twist yourself in believing that there is sufficient evidence for the biblical god. I realize that when listening to theists debate this stuff. My next stop is learn about evolution and cosmology. I know nothing about it except that I've been told its false! I agree that indoctrination is powerful. Although I'm trying determine if that what happened to me. I think indoctrination implies malice. Which in many cases with religion, it certainly can be! I feel that my parents where trying to teach me the best possible values they knew, with hopes that I will keep those.

Ex-Christian.net is a good site. Didn't know you were on there! I'm also participating in Recovering from Religion rooms and met some cool people. Thanks for encouragement. I look forward to a new freedom.

[Cootie Brown]

Loftus said, in one of his interviews, he thinks many of these well known Christian apologists know Christianity isn’t true but they are so heavily invested in it and have so much money at risk, they cannot afford to walk away because it would destroy them. I think he is probably right.

Most people that are leaving religion go through distinct steps. Doubt leads to more liberal views and interpretation of scripture, that leads to a search for other “spiritual” alternatives, such as Deism, but those paths eventually lead to total disbelief. That journey typically takes many years to complete.

My doubts & journey began in the late 90’s, but I didn’t walk away until 2012. It is not uncommon for this journey to take 20 or more years for some people. I am personally convinced the evidence strongly suggests all of us were deeply indoctrinated. That is certainly true for those that were raised in a specific religion from birth.

Who, for example, would ever believe Mormonism is true without some kind of mind manipulation? And I’ve active over at Ex-Christian since 2012, when I finally cut ties with Christianity. That is a great site for folks that are on their de-conversation journey.

[kneedeep]

Absolutely! I just started reading his blog reading Debunking Christianity. I like his style. He has argued against some atheists on matters pertaining to religion as well. I was subscribed to Bart Ehrman's blog for a little bit. His posts are quite lengthy but worth the read. Have you read any of Richard Carrier's books? I'm considering On The Historicity of Jesus. I watched some debates and he seems solid. Not really convinced on the Mythicist position, but time will tell. Dr. Robert M Price views are fascinating as well. I will check out the Ex-Christian.net forum.

[Cootie Brown]

Absolutely! I just started reading his blog reading Debunking Christianity. I like his style. He has argued against some atheists on matters pertaining to religion as well. I was subscribed to Bart Ehrman's blog for a little bit. His posts are quite lengthy but worth the read. Have you read any of Richard Carrier's books? I'm considering On The Historicity of Jesus. I watched some debates and he seems solid. Not really convinced on the Mythicist position, but time will tell. Dr. Robert M Price views are fascinating as well. I will check out the Ex-Christian.net forum.

Carrier & Price make the best arguments I’ve heard/read for Jesus being a literary character. Likewise, Price & Hermann Detering (The Fabricated Paul) make believable arguments for Paul being a literary character too. Price book is, The Colossal Apostle.

Price is an amazing Biblical scholar and so is Ehrman. I’ve read most of his books. He is the scholar that convinced me the Bible & Christianity are both man made.

[B.H.]

I believe in Allah but have to admit the apologists often have very weak arguments, contradict themselves, or make purely philosophical arguments to prove their points when they do not have any actual proof for what they affirm.

When scientists and mathematicians proved the earth was round it was argued it could not be true. Something was wrong w ithe the tools or whatever. The reason it could not be round is because everything on the side or bottom would fall off. Then some one would prove it true by sticking a toy person on the bottom of a ball and it immediately fall offm later gravity was discovered and explained why people and critters dont fall off the planet.

The kalaam argument has so many holes it makes me cringe when I hear it.

The idea there is no morality if a god does not exist does too.

[kneedeep]

I believe in Allah but have to admit the apologists often have very weak arguments, contradict themselves, or make purely philosophical arguments to prove their points when they do not have any actual proof for what they affirm.

When scientists and mathematicians proved the earth was round it was argued it could not be true. Something was wrong w ithe the tools or whatever. The reason it could not be round is because everything on the side or bottom would fall off. Then some one would prove it true by sticking a toy person on the bottom of a ball and it immediately fall offm later gravity was discovered and explained why people and critters dont fall off the planet.

The kalaam argument has so many holes it makes me cringe when I hear it.

The idea there is no morality if a god does not exist does too.

I like the following refutation of Kalaam:

"The Kalam itself aims simply to establish that the universe requires a cause. Simply put, it's an unsound argument because it commits a fallacy of composition. "The universe", regardless of how it's defined (multiverses, etc.), is not the same kind of thing as objects within the universe. The fact that causality is observed to affect matter, energy or objects within the universe does not imply that causality must apply to the universe itself. Indeed, it doesn't make much sense to talk about causality without time, space, matter, and energy; nor does it make any sense to talk about things "beginning to exist" without respect to time – a property of the extant universe. That's really all that needs to be said to demonstrate the argument as unsound.

Just because causality works within the universe, it doesn't mean causality applies to the universe. For that to work, we have to posit some kind of 'supernatural causality', unbound by the physical laws of our universe. But again, such a causality, while possible, is purely speculative. If it does exist, how would we know? If it isn't constrained by the laws of the universe, why assume it's anything like physical causality at all? Because speculative phenomena cannot be used in the premise of a logical proof, the first premise must be strictly limited to observable physical causality"

The rest breaks down each remaining premises of this argument. In one of my older threads, you made a good point about how philosophical arguments aren't the best methods to prove a god exists. I didn't truly grasp your message when we were corresponding, but now I get! It took me roughly two years, but better late than never!

Moral arguments . It seems the easiest counter is to point out the immoral actions of the biblical god. Yet, "pre-suppers" found ways to wiggle out of it.

IMO, the ability to keep faith is to rely on a special experience. Which when I look back on my Christian life, there wasn't any extraordinary event I can honestly point to and believe a god was involved. Sure, I've had risky experiences where my life could have ended. There are times I believed God answered my petitions. It became clear I was attributing all of the good situations to this God. In short...confirmation bias. Which we ALL are guilty of in some manner. I had no animal talking to me, no voice speaking through a burning bush, no dream visits, and no road to Damascus event. If God was able to show up like that thousands of years ago, then it can easily do that now. I know some believers claim to have had these "god-like" experiences, which provides enough proof to them. It's no longer enough for me.

[B.H.]

If a deity is the source of morality ands its ways are above our ways and we are too dumb to see why something some deity is said to have done that seems atrocious but is really good how do we figure out which god is the true one with true morality and true ways above our ways wIthhout relying on our own reason.

Apologists always say a persons criticisms of some supposed moral atrocity by some god is null because it is just that persons opinion, nothing objective. How would you judge the acts of the different deities around the world using anything else but human reason to form moral opinions. Did the great Juju under the sea hump a goat because he is debauched as a christian would say or was the great juju under the sea doing something righteous and holy because he is above our ways and the source of goodness and the christians fails to understand humping goat is good because he is limited in understanding whereas Juju is not being deity? And on and on and onm. If you cant use human reason to come conclusions about the morals of god as he is understood by the Jews, the muslim and the christians you cannot use it to criticise other gods or goddesses because their ways hypothetically speaking are above our ways and by being deity decide what is good and right by what their nature is and it is our place to change our views to fit theirs.

[kneedeep]

If a deity is the source of morality ands its ways are above our ways and we are too dumb to see why something some deity is said to have done that seems atrocious but is really good how do we figure out which god is the true one with true morality and true ways above our ways wIthhout relying on our own reason.

Apologists always say a persons criticisms of some supposed moral atrocity by some god is null because it is just that persons opinion, nothing objective. How would you judge the acts of the different deities around the world using anything else but human reason to form moral opinions. Did the great Juju under the sea hump a goat because he is debauched as a christian would say or was the great juju under the sea doing something righteous and holy because he is above our ways and the source of goodness and the christians fails to understand humping goat is good because he is limited in understanding whereas Juju is not being deity? And on and on and onm. If you cant use human reason to come conclusions about the morals of god as he is understood by the Jews, the muslim and the christians you cannot use it to criticise other gods or goddesses because their ways hypothetically speaking are above our ways and by being deity decide what is good and right by what their nature is and it is our place to change our views to fit theirs.

Apologists are inherently dishonest..but that's just my opinion.