For Agnostics/Atheists Only - Share your journey

[chrisso99]

No Teresa, that doesn't work. If a fundamentalist cared about evidence - they wouldn't be a fundamentalist. The problem is a fundamentalist never says oh ok, nice evidence but lets just agree to disagree. They employ a wide variety of rhetorical tactics (mostly unknowingly) to obfuscate the issue and mask their lack of evidence and logic.

The WHY has to be addressed. Everyone has ignorance. Everyone has bias. It's not a personal "attack" to discuss this. Fundamentalists are claiming to have knowledge greater than the entire scientific and applicable academic scholarly communities on a variety of subjects. This is clearly an absurd claim, and it should be pointed out. If that's what they believe, they shouldn't be offended by someone talking about it.

And also, I know from my past forays into this forum, theists (of all types) are perfectly welcome to post all kinds of stuff about atheist "motivations." I never saw a moderator edit a post talking about how atheists "hate god" or must have had some sort of trauma to make them stop believing, although I had quite a few of those directed at me. It can be pretty offensive, but lots of people believe this, so I have no problem addressing it.

But it's your website, so you can do whatever you want. Just don't pretend it's open and fair. This is a website for exCoCers who found a different, preferably happy clappy Christian, religious path. If you are an exCoCer who just switched to another crazy cult in the fundamentalist Christian camp, that's cool too, as long as CoC isn't on the sign. You can retain all the knowledge (or lack thereof) and all the attitude of the CoC and that's cool too. However, real life atheists/agnostics are only allowed to participate in discussions if they are willing to be foils for these whack jobs to espouse nonsense. Which is not actually supportive (i.e. helping improve their life) of anyone, BTW, but to it "seems" nicer than letting an atheist truthfully dissect the nonsense. Given that seeming nice is the main goal of happy clappy liberal Christians, that's ok.

[teresa]

The problem is a fundamentalist never says oh ok, nice evidence but lets just agree to disagree. They employ a wide variety of rhetorical tactics (mostly unknowingly) to obfuscate the issue and mask their lack of evidence and logic.

Why is that a problem? The board isn't here to convert folks to one view or another. Why not just let them be wrong?

[chrisso99]

It's like having an open bar at an AA meeting and just telling people to ignore the people getting wasted and letting the drunkards come sit in the meeting and talk about how booze is great.

[Ashes]

I became an agnostic/atheist as a result of the thread posted by B.H. about Matt Dillahunty visiting a Church of Christ. That led me to a series of light bulb moments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTXN5nOstRs It was Richard Dawkins' statement starting at 2:50 in this clip that really finalized it for me.

[Cootie Brown]

I just spent some time reading all the posts. I will say this first, I've been active and inactive on this site since 2005 when I left the c of c. The last time I stopped being active was around the time I accepted the reality that I was no longer a believer. I found another web site that is specifically for people who have left Xanity. I didn't return to this site for several years after that.

I will also note that I have no ax to grind with Teresa or Acricola. I can honestly say I like both of them and I absolutely admire Agricola's vast knowledge of theology. Over the years I have learned much from her posts. I left after Agricola deleted one of my post. I wasn't angry with her, she was just following the rules and I wasn't mostly because I don't agree with many of the rules or the religious PC environment that seems to be the basis of a lot of the rules.

Anyway, back to my story. After years of being inactive I decided to come back just to check it our again. I discovered the site was no longer active so I figured it had been closed down. The other site where I am active is Ex-Christian.net. Well whenever I type that name into a search engine Ex-Church of Christ comes up in the list too. I accidently clicked on Ex-Church of Christ one day and discovered the site was back up and running again. I discovered from reading the board the old site apparently crashed.

I logged on again a few months ago and posted some thoughts only to discover what others have noted in this topic that being the rules are problematic, as I previously noted. I was feeling nostalgic and logged on yesterday and made a long post started by Zeek who was announcing his departure and the reasons for leaving. I could definitely relate and said so in my post.

Agricola posted back to me and noted the mods were aware of the feeling by more than a few posters that posts are essentially being censored. I thought Agricola addressed the problem and the mods attempt to rethink some of the rules adequately. Teresa also added her comments and that helped me to understand her position and goals for this site a little better.

I've thought about both of their posts overnight. This site is basically designed for fundamentalists. I was a fundy myself for 47 years so I absolutely understand that mindset and the beliefs that go with it. Fundy thinking is rather unique and isn't really compatible with anyone who doesn't buy into that particular way of thinking. Fundies generally don't even recognize non fundy groups as Xians, so that kind of confirms they are not exactly open minded.

People who are leaving the c of c generally are not leaving Christian fundamentalism, they are just in the process of finding a new somewhat less legalistic version of Xian fundamentalism. Therefore the basic thinking hasn't changed all that much and that thinking still rejects more liberal versions of Xianity. It goes without saying the those of us who have rejected religion altogether are really not compatible with any form of die hard Xianity.

Since that is true any comments we make about our lack of belief is offensive to a fundy. They see us as having committed the unpardonable sin and we are therefore the worst of the worst. All of my c of c friends disfellowshipped me when I left the c of c and I haven't heard from any of them since. And I understand, from their point of view and beliefs, why they have no choice but to turn their backs on me. I also understand they despise homosexuals because they are certain God hates homosexuals so they have to hate them too. No I'm not gay, but I confess I don't have an issue with homosexuality either. As fare as I'm concerned people are free to love whoever they love.

So, those of us that have left the faith are tolerated here but not really welcome and I honestly don't have a problem with that because I understand fundy thinking and beliefs. This site isn't designed for us, were an anomaly, a by product of religious intolerance. Xians don't care what we think or why we left the faith and that's understandable.

Xians like to plant seeds and I confess I do too because I am convinced the fundy versions of Xianity are absolutely religious cults and I do include the c of c in that too. I am also convinced true freedom will never be found in any religion. Control and indoctrination are mandated for religion to survive and they have become experts in the use of those tools. An open and inquisitive mind is the biggest danger religion faces. Members who ask questions are a serious problem. Religion demands compliance not questions. Questions reflect a potential lack of faith and that is a serious threat.

I am now actually ashamed that I was ever so gullible as to believe any of the nonsense that the c of c fed me. I am even more ashamed that I actually brought a number of people into the c of c through the use of a coercive Bible study. Ironically the c of c dogmatic belief that the Bible is fully inerrant and fully inspired is what eventually led me out of the c of c. I eventually had to admit that I saw lots of inconsistencies and obvious contradictions in the Bible as well as stories that were obviously not literally true because they were clearly myths. Noah, taking snakes, tower of Babel, this list is lengthy.

That led me on a decade study and research of the creation and evolution of both Xianity and the bible. Xian history is nasty and bloody. I found out no one knows where the gospel story came from. It only existed in oral form for decades and maybe centuries. No one named Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John wrote anything because they were names made up as was their supposed involvement with the fictional character named Jesus. Studying the history of Xianity and the Bible proved to be an eye opening and emotional experience. Just read the first chapter of Luke and it is obvious the supposed author isn't an eyewitness to anything and obviously didn't know Paul, who is also likely a mythical character as were his missionary journey's.

I'm aware Xians don't want to hear any of that and could care less what scholars have discovered. As one poster told me a few months ago it simply isn't possible for historians to known what happened. I realize that's just a defensive mechanism and used as a last resort when the believer doesn't have any facts to back up their beliefs. That is why "faith" is necessary because there is no evidence to support any of the Xian beliefs. And lack of faith is a sin unto death. A skeptic might have something to say about that kind of logic, but Xians don't see a problem with it at all.

I could never return to religion. I will never surrender my freedom, my money, or my mind to that cult again.

[Letmethink]

Cootie Brown, excellent post. I've followed this site (from time to time) for a couple of years now. I grew up in a deeply hardline coC, and all of my immediate family was fully immersed in it. I began deeply studying the teachings of the "little c" of C close to a decade ago. My goal in my study was to fully understand the reason for doing the things that we do, and largely so that I could teach me children and make sure that their faith was built on a solid footing. For much of that time, I was teaching classes, lay preaching and active in the "worship service." I stayed with the coC for most of that time, even though I didn't buy into many, many of the dogmatic teachings. I "held fast" to the Bible, and realized that many, if not most, of the most dogmatic doctrines in the coC were easily refuted simply by sticking to what the Bible said.

I did not gain popularity for pointing out what the Bible said or by challenging these unwritten doctrines / dogmas / creeds.

But I can confidently say my faith in the Bible never waned, nor did my fervor for the Bible.

That was, until I began to see the various inconsistencies in the Bible. Which prompted me to dig. And dig. And dig.

My digging didn't stop, and neither did the inconsistencies that were uncovered. It slowly become evident to me that the doctrines of "infallibility" and "inspiration of the Bible" were also simply dogmas created by man. Except this time, it was also clear to me that these specific dogmas weren't just relevant to the coC, they were the bedrock of virtually every flavor of Christianinty that I was aware of. Once the thread unraveled, it unraveled so thoroughly, it looked nothing like its former self. The former blanket of belief became a pile of discarded string.

Ironically my my search to bolster my faith led to the eventual complete loss of faith. There are many Christians that don't believe that this is possible; perhaps some reading this now. They believe that my journey was not what I say it was, or that somehow I was insincere. I am sure some doubt whether I was ever a true believer in the first place. I know without the slightest bit of hesitation that I fully believed in God, that Christ was the son of God, and that salvation was through Him alone.

Some might be interested to know that I attended church "faithfully" during this whole process, and the even for some time after my faith was gone. In fact I still often attend (although a much more progressive variety now), mostly out of habit, and for many relationships that I value, and fear of losing those relationships if I stop. My faith however, is gone. Entirely. I still like to study the Bible, and try to figure what makes each of us think the way we do. But I am no longer convinced that the Bible is anything more than recorded writings of men from various generations, geographies, and cultures.

Regards to all. I wish you the best wherever your paths lead.

[Ivy]

Regards to all. I wish you the best wherever your paths lead.

Thank you, Letmethink, and I just want to say that I think your name is fabulous!!