Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
The reticence has a lot to do with many atheists' wish to be known for other more positive things than non- belief, which again, isn't really a thing. It is much more pleasant and constructive to be known for what you are and do, like philanthropy, kindness, wisdom, talent, intelligence, contributions to society, etc. In spite of propaganda to the contrary, being an atheist doesn't say anything about your personal standards or values, how you act, how you treat others, or how intelligent you are.
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
Granted - and yet, do remember that we were all raised with the notion that moral/ethical behavior was inextricably tied to religious belief. I have even had people flat TELL me that if they didn't have a belief in God, then they would certainly rob, cheat, steal and worse, because the only thing stopping them - the ONLY thing - was their belief that their actions were being 'watched' and that there would be an inevitable consequence.
So how do you (anybody) hope - ever - to reassure people like that, when they are obviously going to firmly believe that anybody without a belief in God is, basically, a crime wave waiting to happen and a person totally without a shred of honesty about them, too?
They will not believe a word you say. They will not believe that, just because you behaved well yesterday, that you might behave well tomorrow.
Also - granted - such folks are (thankfully) a small minority of religious believers. But in a world of 7 billion, even a small minority is a large number of people.
Given that these people are out there, I believe that the only way to persuade them differently, is to give them enough examples from their own acquaintance to use 'experience' to teach, since 'doctrine' contradicts (for them) the idea that moral/ethical behavior can exist without the eye in the sky and punishment afterward.
They have those Russian novels to look at - you know 'without God, all is permitted' and also the example of Leopold and Loeb, who reasoned that without a god, it would be a neutral decision to murder a child, because they happened to be curious about what a dead person would look like.
So how do you (anybody) hope - ever - to reassure people like that, when they are obviously going to firmly believe that anybody without a belief in God is, basically, a crime wave waiting to happen and a person totally without a shred of honesty about them, too?
They will not believe a word you say. They will not believe that, just because you behaved well yesterday, that you might behave well tomorrow.
Also - granted - such folks are (thankfully) a small minority of religious believers. But in a world of 7 billion, even a small minority is a large number of people.
Given that these people are out there, I believe that the only way to persuade them differently, is to give them enough examples from their own acquaintance to use 'experience' to teach, since 'doctrine' contradicts (for them) the idea that moral/ethical behavior can exist without the eye in the sky and punishment afterward.
They have those Russian novels to look at - you know 'without God, all is permitted' and also the example of Leopold and Loeb, who reasoned that without a god, it would be a neutral decision to murder a child, because they happened to be curious about what a dead person would look like.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
Yeah, that's why there is now an "openly secular " movement. But just like any other kind of revolutionary movement, the people on the front lines bear the brunt of the push back. Not many are willing to lose their jobs and families, though some do and have over the last few years, especially a bunch of ex preachers from the clergy project.
Added: I knew there was a reason I've hated Russian novels for years.
As for having no morality with no God, there is a presupposition that there is a god and that that that particular God gave people the understanding of morality. The atheist makes no such presupposition. There is not really an argument about the existence of moral codes in all societies. Most likely, the atheist presupposes that those moral codes came about by natural means. The specific mechanism is debatable. Most, however, would probably agree that morality benefits humanity to such an extent that it helps humans stay alive, pass on their genes and raise their offspring. Those moral codes that don't benefit humanity change or die out.
Added: I knew there was a reason I've hated Russian novels for years.
As for having no morality with no God, there is a presupposition that there is a god and that that that particular God gave people the understanding of morality. The atheist makes no such presupposition. There is not really an argument about the existence of moral codes in all societies. Most likely, the atheist presupposes that those moral codes came about by natural means. The specific mechanism is debatable. Most, however, would probably agree that morality benefits humanity to such an extent that it helps humans stay alive, pass on their genes and raise their offspring. Those moral codes that don't benefit humanity change or die out.
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
The fact that every society has some sort of very similar "moral" code is pretty clear proof God/Religion has nothing to do with its development. If it did, you'd expect to see moral cores vary as much as religions and cultures vary but they don't. They are fairly consistent. No stealing, no raping other people's wives/daughters, no killing people for no reason, everyone work together when necessary, etc. Religions were built around morality, not the other way around. Furthermore, morality is neither unique to humans nor intrinsic to every human.
As smart and resourceful as humans are, it would be impossible for our species to survive without being part of groups capable of cooperating on complex tasks. If your groupmate is raping your mate while you're stealing his food, it's not likely you are going to work together to kill that Wooly Mammoth together the next day. Other animals that work together in groups also have codes of acceptable behavior and even dogs understand concepts like fairness. I think it's pretty safe to say that chimps, baboons, and dogs don't have gods or religions.
Certain humans have no sense of morality or ethics whatsoever. True sociopaths are pretty rare but their brains literally work differently than normal humans. Jesus can't cure them. Nothing can. They just are what they are. Some will mostly behave in a legal, if amoral, way because they don't want negative consequences and be successful business people, politicians, doctors, etc. Some will eat your liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti. No religion can change the way their brain physically works and make these people actually feel emotions and empathy or change.
All of this is exactly what you would predict if morality had a natural origin vice a supernatural origin.
As smart and resourceful as humans are, it would be impossible for our species to survive without being part of groups capable of cooperating on complex tasks. If your groupmate is raping your mate while you're stealing his food, it's not likely you are going to work together to kill that Wooly Mammoth together the next day. Other animals that work together in groups also have codes of acceptable behavior and even dogs understand concepts like fairness. I think it's pretty safe to say that chimps, baboons, and dogs don't have gods or religions.
Certain humans have no sense of morality or ethics whatsoever. True sociopaths are pretty rare but their brains literally work differently than normal humans. Jesus can't cure them. Nothing can. They just are what they are. Some will mostly behave in a legal, if amoral, way because they don't want negative consequences and be successful business people, politicians, doctors, etc. Some will eat your liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti. No religion can change the way their brain physically works and make these people actually feel emotions and empathy or change.
All of this is exactly what you would predict if morality had a natural origin vice a supernatural origin.
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
Yes I think you are mostly right. Plus some parts (considerable parts) of organized religions are built around protecting and preserving the status quo, because - really - stability is better than chaos for society as a whole. There are positives to that, as well as certain known negatives ('opiate of the people').chrisso99 wrote:The fact that every society has some sort of very similar "moral" code is pretty clear proof God/Religion has nothing to do with its development. If it did, you'd expect to see moral cores vary as much as religions and cultures vary but they don't. They are fairly consistent. No stealing, no raping other people's wives/daughters, no killing people for no reason, everyone work together when necessary, etc. Religions were built around morality, not the other way around. Furthermore, morality is neither unique to humans nor intrinsic to every human.
As smart and resourceful as humans are, it would be impossible for our species to survive without being part of groups capable of cooperating on complex tasks. If your groupmate is raping your mate while you're stealing his food, it's not likely you are going to work together to kill that Wooly Mammoth together the next day. Other animals that work together in groups also have codes of acceptable behavior and even dogs understand concepts like fairness. I think it's pretty safe to say that chimps, baboons, and dogs don't have gods or religions.
Certain humans have no sense of morality or ethics whatsoever. True sociopaths are pretty rare but their brains literally work differently than normal humans. Jesus can't cure them. Nothing can. They just are what they are. Some will mostly behave in a legal, if amoral, way because they don't want negative consequences and be successful business people, politicians, doctors, etc. Some will eat your liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti. No religion can change the way their brain physically works and make these people actually feel emotions and empathy or change.
All of this is exactly what you would predict if morality had a natural origin vice a supernatural origin.
and yes, turtle, it seems to me also that Russian novels take a certain despairing view of human nature!
What I've heard is that a sociopath makes a quite successful and reasonable supervisor/commander/chief of whatever, except that people don't quite enjoy working for them!
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
I have found this video about why people believe in gods to be very informative.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
Supposedly evolution is responsible for such great diversity and because there is so much commonality it reaffirms evolution, as in a common ancestry or starting point. Then it seems that commonality in the great diversity of religion would also point to a common ancestry or starting point. Why is it not then just as obvious and true that it all had a common starting point, morals, life, and religion? IMO, it is all echoes and permutations of the original. Which could easily then be a common creator.
If commonality and similarity proves a lack of a common starting point, as Chrisso has asserted, then the theory of evolution is silly.
If commonality and similarity proves a lack of a common starting point, as Chrisso has asserted, then the theory of evolution is silly.
Isn't the world wonderful...I am all for rational optimism and I am staying positive.
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
You are comparing apples and oranges. You make it painfully obvious you don't know what you are talking about , either that or you are choosing to be deliberately obtuse. Plus, this is a support forum, not a criticism or debate forum.klp wrote:Supposedly evolution is responsible for such great diversity and because there is so much commonality it reaffirms evolution, as in a common ancestry or starting point. Then it seems that commonality in the great diversity of religion would also point to a common ancestry or starting point. Why is it not then just as obvious and true that it all had a common starting point, morals, life, and religion? IMO, it is all echoes and permutations of the original. Which could easily then be a common creator.
If commonality and similarity proves a lack of a common starting point, as Chrisso has asserted, then the theory of evolution is silly.
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
No, actually I think that is a valid observation: from outside.
It falls apart from 'inside' the science of evolution but it is a VERY common kind of idea, and it is the same sort of idea that put 'Darwinian evolution' together with theories of social history, and came up with eugenics and 'social Darwinism', which isn't science at all, but social engineering.
I have a T-shirt someplace which says that 'science doesn't care what you think, it is true anyway' (or something like that). Which is why 'evolution' is a science, and social engineering based on false analogies isn't.
There is, however, a superficial resemblance between evolution and 'religious development', but it is kind of like the similarity between, say, sharks and dolphins. They look a LOT alike - but are nothing alike, either. One is a fish and the other is a mammal. They just look alike on the outside.
It falls apart from 'inside' the science of evolution but it is a VERY common kind of idea, and it is the same sort of idea that put 'Darwinian evolution' together with theories of social history, and came up with eugenics and 'social Darwinism', which isn't science at all, but social engineering.
I have a T-shirt someplace which says that 'science doesn't care what you think, it is true anyway' (or something like that). Which is why 'evolution' is a science, and social engineering based on false analogies isn't.
There is, however, a superficial resemblance between evolution and 'religious development', but it is kind of like the similarity between, say, sharks and dolphins. They look a LOT alike - but are nothing alike, either. One is a fish and the other is a mammal. They just look alike on the outside.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
Now here's an interesting piece on morality and religion - or on morality OR religion....
enjoy:
h**p://thedoctorweighsin.com/does-religion-drive-moral-sensitivity/
enjoy:
h**p://thedoctorweighsin.com/does-religion-drive-moral-sensitivity/
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.