Ex-Church of Christ Support Board

Lots of feelings of community and connection, even with Jewish communities overseas.

I have to admit I've always been just a little envious of that.

Well it is also kind of annoying sometimes. And it sucks to be stuck with CERTAIN PEOPLE you'd just as soon see disappear down a deep dark hole. But it AMAZES Jews that Christians are so ready to deny that some sleazeball is a Christian just because he isn't a GOOD one, you know? It's like they can happily run around saying 'all Christians are wonderful and good' because they simply refuse to admit the bad ones into the club. It's kind of like 'cheating', from a Jewish POV. If we're always getting smeared by a Bernie Madoff, why do Christians think they get a free pass with Timothy McVeigh? Or Christian Identity members?

Apparently only Jews and Muslims are collectively responsible for their deplorables, terrorists, and criminals.

agricola wrote:Well it is also kind of annoying sometimes. And it sucks to be stuck with CERTAIN PEOPLE you'd just as soon see disappear down a deep dark hole. But it AMAZES Jews that Christians are so ready to deny that some sleazeball is a Christian just because he isn't a GOOD one, you know? It's like they can happily run around saying 'all Christians are wonderful and good' because they simply refuse to admit the bad ones into the club. It's kind of like 'cheating', from a Jewish POV. If we're always getting smeared by a Bernie Madoff, why do Christians think they get a free pass with Timothy McVeigh? Or Christian Identity members?

Apparently only Jews and Muslims are collectively responsible for their deplorables, terrorists, and criminals.

I think because most Christians in America believe you simply are saved by having believed in Jesus. No need for any works. It's the minority view worldwide and within the COC. But most evangelicals think it is heresy to believe you have to believe and actually do works of obedience and service to God and others. Muslims I know think such a doctrine as the evangelicals hold to be silly. There is no incentive to grow or do what is right. Yeah, spare me. They say the spirit helps them overcome sin and do good anyway. Yeah, the spirit makes you hop into bed with several different men or women and have all kinds of illegitimate kids, plus you steal from your employers, ect.

Hellfire and the htreat of damnation is a wonderful and just thing for people who do not actually try to "work". It is one of Allah's greatest blessings. It kept many an unmarried person virgin until marriage and kept a lot of stealing from happening.

agricola wrote:Well it is also kind of annoying sometimes. And it sucks to be stuck with CERTAIN PEOPLE you'd just as soon see disappear down a deep dark hole. But it AMAZES Jews that Christians are so ready to deny that some sleazeball is a Christian just because he isn't a GOOD one, you know? It's like they can happily run around saying 'all Christians are wonderful and good' because they simply refuse to admit the bad ones into the club. It's kind of like 'cheating', from a Jewish POV. If we're always getting smeared by a Bernie Madoff, why do Christians think they get a free pass with Timothy McVeigh? Or Christian Identity members?

Apparently only Jews and Muslims are collectively responsible for their deplorables, terrorists, and criminals.

That is an interesting phenomenon. Maybe it's because being Jewish is usually passed down biologically / genetically, and being christian is not?

I don't know.

I am friends with a Jewish widow (neighbor) and the two Jewish families left in my town. One of the sons used to work with me at the grocery store and he dated a one cup girl for a while. He visited her church a few times and came to work upset. He asked me why the Church of Christ hated Jews so much and I said we don't hate Jews. He said you must because you believe we are going to hell. I said that isn't an antiJew thing that is just them being stupid. They think everyone who isn't Church of Christ is going to hell including the Baptists and Catholics. And then he lit up like a light bulb appeared over his head and said " So they really just hate everyone!" and I said "That pretty much is what it amounts too thought they would use other words".

B.H. wrote:They think everyone who isn't Church of Christ is going to hell including the Baptists and Catholics. And then he lit up like a light bulb appeared over his head and said " So they really just hate everyone!" and I said "That pretty much is what it amounts too thought they would use other words".

One of the "special classes" my congregation did (which was a multi-day class with a banner put up out by the street to advertise it) was one on Islam. They had their "Islam experts" (ie, coc members who studied the subject themselves without talking to actual Muslims) preaching about Islam. It always struck me as ridiculous. First, why? Why does a Christian church need to do a set of classes talking about a completely different religion? And why are they threatened by Islam but not threatened by Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, or any other "ism"? Goodness, they haven't even done any special classes on atheism, and that's probably growing faster in this country than Islam. Hating others is par for the course with them, especially if they are coming from another country. I've had to unfriend or unfollow more church of Christ members on my Facebook feed than any other group of people. I was sick of hearing hatred spewed about anyone foreign. Like when someone posted a picture of a Muslim family on a beach (the woman being completely covered up - you'd think the coc would LIKE that), and someone comments, "There's more of them coming!" as if that's a horrible thing?!?

That's one of the things that caused me to question being part of the coc, before I even got into doctrinal issues.

The thing about the CoC and Christian denominations in particular is that they can lambast other religions as false and their scriptures are false. You ought to read all the stuff they say about Islam and Prophet Muhammad. It reminds me of how people would tell slanderous lies about the Catholics----the pope declares he is god on earth and all must bow and worship him. how monks in Belgium run a brewery and give it away free to working people to keep them drunk so as to not demand better treatment at work, all kinds of crap. None of this slander against Islam bothers me.. The Quran says it is the final revelation, uncorrupted, and charges that the Bible has much truth but much man made corruption. And we have proof this is potentially true. We have copies of Esther twice as long in material as in your typical Bible today as one example. I'll trust the Quran not a Bible it seems people have attempted to add to and take away from. All I know is that Islam made me a better person and I am not an angry bitter person I used to be. And I got those two miracles I told all of you about.


The Jews are in a somewhat different position than the Catholics or other religions. You can call another religion false or a particulare church a false church but this does not apply to the Jews. Their "Old Testament" is regarded by the Christians as the word of God too so they can't say the Jews have a false scripture or false religion. They can call it perhaps the wrong one to hold now but it is not false per see in that its revelation is error. Also, most of the educated Christian pastors and preachers know the verses of the "Old Testament" that supposedly prove Christ are taken out of context and if they start preaching against the Jews the rabbis will respond and utterly beat the shit out of them. One rabbi I love to watch and read is Tovia Singer. You should youtube him sometime. He goes into various parts of the Hebrew Bible and explains why Isaiah 53 quite clearly is not talking about Jesus, why Rachel weeping for her children was talking about the exile and not Jesus. Some of this I figured out on my own but I like how Singer kinda plugs all the holes and quibbles a Christian might try to argue. Another person or group to follow is Jews for Judaism. They expose al ot of the chicanery Singer does exegisis wise but they a run more investigations of various Christian organizations themselves and expose unethical and deceptive behavior. The funny thing is they have a large Gentile following and said they are deconverting Christians in large numbers. Some seek to become Jews or at least Noahides.

Remember the Law of Moses said not to defer away from God's covenant, even if a prophet performed miracles and tell you different do not listen to him, he is just a test from God to see if you love him.

If I were a Jewish rabbi I could take that verse and answer all the claims against Jesus. I could even grant he performed miracles, died and appeared to be resurrected, and maybe even literally so, and say that still didn't prove he was who he said he was. It was all just a temptation by Satan on behalf of God to see what people loved God and those who didn't.

Well - look at it objectively -

In order for Christianity to be 'true', then Judaism must be 'true' (its okay in this case to argue that JEWS are wrong, but any Christian MUST say that 'Judaism' is (basically) 'true' - or else Christianity is wrong.

In order for Islam to be 'true', then Judaism and Christianity but also be 'true' (again, its okay to argue that Jews and Christians are wrong, but Judaism and Christianity must (basically) be 'true' - or else Islam is wrong.

Judaism, however, doesn't care. Judaism is 'true' no matter whether Christianity is or isn't right or wrong or true, and ditto for Islam.

I've met Tovia Singer. He's a nice guy, but kind of mono-focused. Not that I blame him for that. It's a hard path he's taken.

I used to listen to Tovia Singer and Michael Brown debates on YouTube. Michael Brown is a Jew who become a Christ follower.
Both are extremely bright individuals. Here is a sample for anyone who might be interested:

h**ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35ABfM2RvTI

agricola wrote:Judaism, however, doesn't care. Judaism is 'true' no matter whether Christianity is or isn't right or wrong or true, and ditto for Islam.

Love it.

And yet.....this seems akin to saying "science is true whether or not you accept it as truth".