The emotions are your guide in the world of Spirit. It is often confused by emotion being spirit. They are not the same. The coc does not know this at all.Ivy wrote:I loved my time in pentecostalism / neopentecostalism because it was ok to have mystical / spiritual experiences and feelings. It was part of my overall healing from the nonemotional dogma of the cofc.
Holy Spirit IS the Bible
Re: Holy Spirit IS the Bible
Re: Holy Spirit IS the Bible
How can miracles have ceased if the last times of the antichrist have not played out yet, the dead not raised, the earth burn with fire, ect which the bible says is supposed to happen?
The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it.----Karl Marx
Re: Holy Spirit IS the Bible
They haven't ceased. A miracle can be as simple as meeting the right person. God does not show off always. He has no reason right now. The purpose of the fantastic miracles in the Bible was so people would listen to the message. The CoC has a hateful attitude towards others. In that case God will not listen. With prayer you approach the throne so to speak. I have seen answers to prayers. It is not always done so others will notice. Paul after he was blinded was sent a caretaker. The Lord used a 2x4 to get his attention. This was necessary and we benefit today. He was so zealous the Romans beheaded him under Nero. Nero died in 68 CE. He was a sicko.B.H. wrote:How can miracles have ceased if the last times of the antichrist have not played out yet, the dead not raised, the earth burn with fire, ect which the bible says is supposed to happen?
Re: Holy Spirit IS the Bible
You can probably count on one hand the number of CoC preachers who know anything substantive about the Spirit. In my experience, it is those few who truly know how to read the Greek text. Everyone else is making up the doctrine as they go and relying on old workbooks or treatises from a by-gone era. H. Leo Boles knocked on the door of orthodoxy but didn't enter in. Most CoC preachers couldn't give a coherent explanation of the trinity if you gave them all day to work at it. It's simply not part of their vocabulary: they don't have the words to express orthodox theology.
And being unhinged from church history and the creeds gives them the latitude to perpetuate most any or all of the old trinitarian heresies. I remember hearing sermons that railed against 'Jesus only' Pentecostals and the next week the preacher was spouting Modalism/Sabellianism himself (God manifests himself in modes, or three faces). The last time I was in a CoC was for a Wednesday Bible Study. The topic was the minor prophets. The text of those books was not engaged at all. The church had one of those mind-numbingly stupid workbooks that asks you to fill in some blanks and gives you the answers in 2-3 pages of text preceding the questions. My father, a CoC preacher, began speaking about how the Spirit worked in those olden days and how he works now and I was appalled at the inconsistent nonsense flowing out of his mouth.
Conflating the Spirit and the word is one of the classic Church of Christ heresies. And Barton Stone recognized that some of the Campbellite faction were weak on any doctrine of the Spirit. But, ultimately, he suppressed his misgivings because they stood together on free-will and believer's baptism. Rejecting -in practice- the personhood and energies of the Spirit came somewhat later.
And being unhinged from church history and the creeds gives them the latitude to perpetuate most any or all of the old trinitarian heresies. I remember hearing sermons that railed against 'Jesus only' Pentecostals and the next week the preacher was spouting Modalism/Sabellianism himself (God manifests himself in modes, or three faces). The last time I was in a CoC was for a Wednesday Bible Study. The topic was the minor prophets. The text of those books was not engaged at all. The church had one of those mind-numbingly stupid workbooks that asks you to fill in some blanks and gives you the answers in 2-3 pages of text preceding the questions. My father, a CoC preacher, began speaking about how the Spirit worked in those olden days and how he works now and I was appalled at the inconsistent nonsense flowing out of his mouth.
Conflating the Spirit and the word is one of the classic Church of Christ heresies. And Barton Stone recognized that some of the Campbellite faction were weak on any doctrine of the Spirit. But, ultimately, he suppressed his misgivings because they stood together on free-will and believer's baptism. Rejecting -in practice- the personhood and energies of the Spirit came somewhat later.
Re: Holy Spirit IS the Bible
I agree that it is anti-spiritual. There is not now the need to show off. In ancient times miracles served the purpose of getting attention. They still exist but are not as ostentatious. I believe I am a spiritual cripple today because of my up bringing in the CoC. I am in the process of slogging though but am far behind where I would be. Most churches do have their issues.Shrubbery wrote: It dawned on me that the coc is very anti-spiritual... like they don't believe you feel the presence of God or are physically indwelled with the Holy Spirit, there are no miracles performed today... They believe all that stuff happened in Bible times,
Re: Holy Spirit IS the Bible
I was thinking about the cessationist position the other day and it occurred to me that the CoC takes the position to such an extreme endpoint that they do not even have a category of thought that can process a phenomenon like deliverance ministry. That, in turn, cripples them in making sense of a Biblical book like the Gospel of Mark. My lectionary went through a fairly orderly reading of Mark up through about the fifth chapter this Advent. I've read Mark many times but I did not read him productively until the last couple of years. This year, it finally struck me that the world of Mark is incredibly spiritually charged, vibrant with both light and dark activity. He is interested in exorcism more than any other Gospel writer. In fact, as I have been working on some material that was commissioned for a visit to the diocesan Chancery next month, I realized that the man delivered from Legion is one of the key characters in the first half of the Gospel of Mark.
Re: Holy Spirit IS the Bible
From the scripture itself it sure seems the Spirit is less active or more retiring in terms of doing stuff. Not less of a part of the Godhead, but just less extroverted or something. Is the Spirit ever recorded or promised to be speaking or instructing new information about the Church or Salvation? Or is the Spirit spoken of as desiring to be with people or receiving people as family?
Isn't the world wonderful...I am all for rational optimism and I am staying positive.
Re: Holy Spirit IS the Bible
Regarding the current activities of the Spirit:
Romans 8:26-27 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but that very Spirit intercedes with sighs too deep for words. 27 And God, who searches the heart, knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Romans 8:26-27 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but that very Spirit intercedes with sighs too deep for words. 27 And God, who searches the heart, knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Moogy
NI COC for over 30 years, but out for over 40 years now
Mostly Methodist for about 30 years.
Left the UMC in 2019 based on their decision to condemn LGBT+ persons and to discipline Pastors who perform same-sex marriages
NI COC for over 30 years, but out for over 40 years now
Mostly Methodist for about 30 years.
Left the UMC in 2019 based on their decision to condemn LGBT+ persons and to discipline Pastors who perform same-sex marriages
Re: Holy Spirit IS the Bible
So the Spirit is communicating to God on behalf of Man. And that goes along with what I what saying.Moogy wrote:Regarding the current activities of the Spirit:
Romans 8:26-27 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but that very Spirit intercedes with sighs too deep for words. 27 And God, who searches the heart, knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Isn't the world wonderful...I am all for rational optimism and I am staying positive.
Re: Holy Spirit IS the Bible
The manifestations of the Spirit may be less obvious than in times past, but there has always been an ebb and flow to the Spirit's activity in the life of the congregation of God. What has never changed is the energy of the Spirit throughout all of creation. This short excerpt from a work by Maximus Confessor was revolutionary to me: https://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-t ... spirit.asp
I don't think anyone in the CoC understands the difference between the essence (or substance) of God and his energies. So all of the old debating about the 'personal indwelling' of the Holy Spirit is nonsensical. It is not even addressing a real question. Of course the Spirit indwells the Christian, but through his energies.
Then, there is the whole matter of angels and demons. I heard exactly one substantial lesson about angels in 26 years in the CoC. There was some folklore and folk religion and a few people who would talk about guardian angels in hushed tones or wonder if an angel had intervened at some critical moment in their life but no one really knew anything about angels. And demons were all supposed to be held in chains for the day of judgment. But how then does the passage in 1 Peter, "the devil walks about like a roaring lion," make any sense? The spirit world is much more real and active than any CoCer cares to consider or admit. And I do believe some people are more perceptive to that activity than others. If they are living in a CoC type of environment where these types of experiences are not accepted, in fact usually scoffed at, they are terribly susceptible to some sort of mental or emotional breakdown because their mind is warring with their experience and their senses.
I don't think anyone in the CoC understands the difference between the essence (or substance) of God and his energies. So all of the old debating about the 'personal indwelling' of the Holy Spirit is nonsensical. It is not even addressing a real question. Of course the Spirit indwells the Christian, but through his energies.
Then, there is the whole matter of angels and demons. I heard exactly one substantial lesson about angels in 26 years in the CoC. There was some folklore and folk religion and a few people who would talk about guardian angels in hushed tones or wonder if an angel had intervened at some critical moment in their life but no one really knew anything about angels. And demons were all supposed to be held in chains for the day of judgment. But how then does the passage in 1 Peter, "the devil walks about like a roaring lion," make any sense? The spirit world is much more real and active than any CoCer cares to consider or admit. And I do believe some people are more perceptive to that activity than others. If they are living in a CoC type of environment where these types of experiences are not accepted, in fact usually scoffed at, they are terribly susceptible to some sort of mental or emotional breakdown because their mind is warring with their experience and their senses.