Ridiculous reasons for splits....

A place to snark and vent about CoC doctrine and/or our experiences in the CoC. This is a place for SUPPORT and AGREEMENT only, not a place to tell someone their experience and feelings are wrong, or why we disagree with them.
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Moogy
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Re: Ridiculous reasons for splits....

Post by Moogy »

I was allowed to attend other churches’ events, but not if they conflicted with the COC services. I remember going to Vacation Bible School with a family that lived behind us. It was a Nazarene Church. I was concerned that maybe I shouldn’t pass their collection plate, because that might be supporting their church. (Yes, they passed the plate during VBS!)
Moogy
NI COC for over 30 years, but out for over 40 years now
Mostly Methodist for about 30 years.
Left the UMC in 2019 based on their decision to condemn LGBT+ persons and to discipline Pastors who perform same-sex marriages
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Ivy
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Re: Ridiculous reasons for splits....

Post by Ivy »

Moogy wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:11 pm I was allowed to attend other churches’ events, but not if they conflicted with the COC services. I remember going to Vacation Bible School with a family that lived behind us. It was a Nazarene Church. I was concerned that maybe I shouldn’t pass their collection plate, because that might be supporting their church. (Yes, they passed the plate during VBS!)
One thing I found distasteful, and rather shocking, was the frequency with which they passed the plates in some (non-cofc) churches. At one megachurch, they had a music service during the plate collection time; it was given more priority than the rare communion service. They made a big production out of people going down to the front and putting money into a boot. Yes, a boot, not sure why that was. :lol:

To give credit where due, I liked in cofc that, when the plate was passed, nothing much was said, and it generally wasn't even prayed over, no emotional pleas or guilt tripping. They just left it up to the members' private discretion to "give as you were prospered and determined in your heart", something like that, and that was it. I was appalled when going to different churches, seeing how brazen they were about collecting money, and getting as much as they could. I began to realize that churches could be very lucrative for those running them.
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SolaDude
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Re: Ridiculous reasons for splits....

Post by SolaDude »

Ivy wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:57 am
Moogy wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:11 pm I was allowed to attend other churches’ events, but not if they conflicted with the COC services. I remember going to Vacation Bible School with a family that lived behind us. It was a Nazarene Church. I was concerned that maybe I shouldn’t pass their collection plate, because that might be supporting their church. (Yes, they passed the plate during VBS!)
One thing I found distasteful, and rather shocking, was the frequency with which they passed the plates in some (non-cofc) churches. At one megachurch, they had a music service during the plate collection time; it was given more priority than the rare communion service. They made a big production out of people going down to the front and putting money into a boot. Yes, a boot, not sure why that was. :lol:

To give credit where due, I liked in cofc that, when the plate was passed, nothing much was said, and it generally wasn't even prayed over, no emotional pleas or guilt tripping. They just left it up to the members' private discretion to "give as you were prospered and determined in your heart", something like that, and that was it. I was appalled when going to different churches, seeing how brazen they were about collecting money, and getting as much as they could. I began to realize that churches could be very lucrative for those running them.
My most favorite church w/r/t collection was a Baptist church I once went to. People were directed to a private offering box in the back of the church foyer where people could donate in private (if they wanted to) without other eyes looking down on them in condemnatory condescension, trying to stick their noses into how much they could see someone giving...and on the other hand averting the arrogant snobbery of those giving to impress others watching them give. Passing a plate it seems to me in the CofC was so counter-scriptural to me...stuck out like a sore thumb IMO.
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Ivy
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Re: Ridiculous reasons for splits....

Post by Ivy »

Yes, I also saw some of those hidden boxes, Sola. I liked that.
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agricola
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Re: Ridiculous reasons for splits....

Post by agricola »

I have come to really appreciate the Jewish model. We don't handle money on Shabbat or holidays, so there is no collection plate, ever.
But the synagogue is also not actually the equivalent of a church, AND in addition, Judaism doesn't have the same hangups that Christianity has about money in the first place. It's a useful thing to have. Being rich is better than being poor, but only because you can afford things, not because 'rich PEOPLE are better' or Poor people. Too often in a lot of Christian churches, you get the very strong impression that the Poor are automatically better and the Rich are automatically bed. OR - and maybe worse - that the Rich are clearly favored by God, while the Poor must somehow deserve their fate.
I will just say right now: I REALLY have come to hate the attitude that only 'the Deserving Poor' deserve to be treated like humans. Like human rights have to be EARNED - and also those receiving aid had darned well better be properly grateful for it.

In Judaism, everybody is obliged to mutually support the community as a whole. If you are rich, that just means you can share larger amounts. EVEN the poorest people, who are LIVING on community aid, are still expected to donate part of that aid to the community as a whole. It's not 'charity'. It's 'justice'.

SO - end of rant - synagogues are run like CLUBS. Not with donated funds but with DUES. The congregation elects officers, who set a budget, and decide on the dues structure. People can attend synagogue services without paying dues, but if they want certain KINDS of services - like 'the rabbi will teach your child in preparation for his bar mitzvah', then you have to pay for that, but officially joining the synagogue and paying dues.

And if they dues are too high, there is a committee to apply to for adjustments. And usually the dues are structured so that singles, students, and the elderly often pay less than families. Plus donations are, of course, always welcome - and sometimes expected.
Oh we CERTAINLY get fund raising mailings! But the synagogue actually RUNS on dues.

Monthly or quarterly, or however works. But never during services.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
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teresa
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Re: Ridiculous reasons for splits....

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agricola

How much are the dues?
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agricola
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Re: Ridiculous reasons for splits....

Post by agricola »

The dues amount varies considerably. Larger congregations especially in large cities, usually cost a few thousand annually (that sounds huge, but remember if you are putting $20 in the collection plate every week all year, that is already over a thousand dollars). Some are a few hundred. One VERY small, lay led group I join once in a while charges nothing at all, just asks for an occasional donation to the owners of the SPACE we use - and nobody tracks whether you did or didn't donate.

A lot of places charge a reduced amount for people who live a long distance away, who won't be attending very often. And anybody who truly can't afford dues but still wants to be an actual member, generally has a path to apply for relief of dues, or reduced amounts.

Where we are now, the 'adult family' dues amount is $1800 per year. Students pay something like $50 a year (a really HUGE break). I think there are something like six different dues structures for people - students, singles, seniors, etc.

Dues typically make up a large part of the budget, but not the entire budget. Usually there are a few very well off members who subsidize the synagogue, and older synagogues sometimes actually have an endowment, which supplies a portion of costs.

The biggest expenses are, of course - the facility itself and it's upkeep - and if there is a major remodel or maintenance needed, the membership is usually encouraged to make special donations for the new roof, or whatever.
Next is the salaries and benefits package for the rabbi, cantor, administrative assistant etc - the staff.
Typically, a synagogue affiliates with one of the national organizations, and that requires paying THEM dues (I believe it is a percentage, not a set amount).
And most synagogues keep a budget specifically for assisting people, or for other 'social' reasons. Often, the rabbi manages that ('the Rabbi's Discretionary Fund'). There is also a Choir Fund, and a Religious School Fund - pretty much, there is always some kind of quiet but strong 'suggestion' that a donation would be very welcome - on top of dues!

The donations actually make it possible to keep the dues amounts stable over the long term.

Lately, we have added an annual assessment per family of $100, specifically for additions to the synagogue's security situation, including cameras, new locks and alarms, and we pay a policeman to stand by every time the place is open for services or for school.

Necessary, but not a big thrill, either.

It is actually a given, in Jewish communities, that people simply WILL make donations, for a whole list of 'occasions', including every Jewish holiday, and also most life cycle events, or to mark a milestone, like the annual date of the death of a parent (very common occasion for a donation).

But really, anybody can ATTEND services without becoming a MEMBER. Members get to run for offices, and get to vote on people running for offices, and the High Holy Days - which are very heavily attended - are times when members are guaranteed seats, but NON members are expected to 'buy tickets' - this usually costs less than an annual membership, but it can still be in the hundreds. And it is 'members get seats and the ones left over may be purchased'.

If you are a parent, you need to join to be eligible to enroll your child in religious school, and to get him or her into the pre-bar/bat mitzvah classes.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
faithandmore
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Re: Ridiculous reasons for splits....

Post by faithandmore »

At a Presbyterian church we had a huge split a few years back. There were some who didn't like the pastor. Felt he was too abrupt or he would just say no to them. I happened to like him and thought he was a nice guy.
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teresa
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Re: Ridiculous reasons for splits....

Post by teresa »

Thanks, agricola
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agricola
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Re: Ridiculous reasons for splits....

Post by agricola »

No problem.

The thing is - Jewish congregations rarely 'split' over 'doctrinal differences'. That just isn't really a thing, I suppose. Also, we are invariably a minority - it isn't like there are seventeen possible nearly options! Usually there is one place, or up to three, perhaps, even in good sized cities. REALLY large cities may have a few (low) dozen synagogues, though.

It is probably more common for two synagogues to MERGE, rather than a larger one to 'split'. And those few that DO split, are typically orthodox, and do so because they have simply become LARGE - and simply divide into two different 'synagogues' based on distance - orthodox Jews typically want a synagogue within walking distance.

(Most orthodox synagogues are - because of the 'within walking distance' limitation - fairly small).

Shrinking numbers in smaller cities often result in two synagogues of different 'movements' to MERGE to save costs on facilities and staff - the typical merge is between Reform and Conservative, OR between Conservative and orthodox. Often, such a merged congregation will maintain two services (one per variety) but will share the building, and will make accommodations so they can share things like the kitchen (meaning, usually, that the synagogue kitchen becomes kosher to orthodox (or Conservative) standards).

Hebrew school is typically 'combined'. The new merged congregation may be able to afford MORE staff, since they aren't supporting two separate buildings, too. A lot of rabbis are actually able to 'lead services' in more than one 'style', but that still requires the congregation itself to be willing to be a bit flexible. Usually, such merged congregations eventually drift into a single unit of one type or the other, depending on the demographics. But that can take years, even decades.

Boise, Salt Lake - those are two cities I know of where merged congregations exist. I hear there are actually a lot of them, though.

Demographics - like the overall population of the US, the Jewish population USED TO BE more distributed in smaller towns, but has gradually been more and more concentrated into larger cities - a reflection of the overall urbanization of America, but more extreme.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
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