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Leading singing/Shape notes and hand movements.
Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 12:16 pm
by longdistancerunner
I have always wondered if people actually use the shape notes or the hand movements song leaders in the CoC use?. Does anyone else do anything similar. The hand movements of the song leader don't to me seem anything similar to what a conductor of an orchestra does. My understanding is shape notes are just a substitute for music notation but they have always been very confusing to me. I have seen the more liberal churches use praise singers (4 or 5 singers to accompany the song leader with microphones) and the traditional churches are opposed to this but I am not sure their rationale.
Re: Leading singing/Shape notes and hand movements.
Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 1:18 pm
by zeek
The shaped notes have a purpose. Each note of the scale, do, re, mi, fa, so, la, ti, do, has a specific corresponding shape. There are groups that practice shaped note singing. I'm not sure as to which churches or denominations use hymnals with shaped notes. I do know that some of the newer coC hymnals (song books, as hymnal sounds too denominational) have gone to standard round notes. As for the arm swinging, I led singing a lot but never engaged in that. I know how but it has always seemed, somehow, pretentious to me. Frankly, I never saw how whipping the air to a froth improved the singing any.
Re: Leading singing/Shape notes and hand movements.
Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 7:00 pm
by Moogy
The coC where I grew up had singing classes for those who wanted to participate. We were fortunate to have a man who majored in music education. Besides, he had a great voice. Later, the church I attended as a young adult had such classes, with a good but less talented leader. We learned to follow the shape notes. Don’t ask me to try it now!
There is a group called Sacred Harp that has weekend “singings” with a slightly different type of shape notes. People of any church or none can participate. I have looked for such groups near me without success. I did enjoy much of the singing at the coC, but not enough to return to a coC except for occasional funerals.
Re: Leading singing/Shape notes and hand movements.
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:45 am
by Ivy
Moogy wrote: ↑Sat Mar 26, 2022 7:00 pm
There is a group called Sacred Harp that has weekend “singings” with a slightly different type of shape notes.
Moogy, no offense to you, but that made me shudder a little. Triggered I guess.
And zeek, you made me LOL with your post, below. HAHAHA!!!
The shaped notes have a purpose. Each note of the scale, do, re, mi, fa, so, la, ti, do, has a specific corresponding shape. There are groups that practice shaped note singing. I'm not sure as to which churches or denominations use hymnals with shaped notes. I do know that some of the newer coC hymnals (song books, as hymnal sounds too denominational) have gone to standard round notes. As for the arm swinging, I led singing a lot but never engaged in that. I know how but it has always seemed, somehow, pretentious to me. Frankly, I never saw how whipping the air to a froth improved the singing any.
I don't think I ever used the "shaped notes" to guide my singing. I just sort of either knew the songs or followed the arm swinger. But it concerns me that you say some cofcs have gone to standard round notes. I don't know if that's even scriptural.
Frankly, I never saw how whipping the air to a froth improved the singing any.
I don't know how you stood up there and led sing without swinging your arm.
This also reminds me of the discreet use of the pitch pipe. The song leader who really cared about having the pitch right would pull it out of his pocket and, as quietly as possible, blow one note at about the volume of a whisper, then pretend he didn't do it.
Re: Leading singing/Shape notes and hand movements.
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:57 pm
by zeek
Ivy said:
I had a pitch pipe and was trained to use it and would have but for one thing. At the congregation I attended there were two people who believed it constituted instrumental music in the worship. The Elders left it up to me to decide what to do about it. They didn't have a problem with it. I had a serious and deep conversation with each of the offended people and was convinced they were sincere and not just trying to be a pain. So, I found myself in the following situation. If I used the pitch pipe and those two people joined in the singing, I was causing them to sin because the New Testament clearly teaches that if we engage in something we believe to be wrong it is sin. On the other hand, If I used the pitch pipe and they, for conscience sake, didn't join in the singing, I was hindering them from worshiping. I left the pitch pipe at home, where I would use it in practicing songs and just winged it during the worship service. Thankfully, there weren't many times that I really, really screwed up the pitch of a song badly.
Re: Leading singing/Shape notes and hand movements.
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:04 am
by Ivy
zeek wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:57 pm
Ivy said:
I had a pitch pipe and was trained to use it and would have but for one thing. At the congregation I attended there were two people who believed it constituted instrumental music in the worship. The Elders left it up to me to decide what to do about it. They didn't have a problem with it. I had a serious and deep conversation with each of the offended people and was convinced they were sincere and not just trying to be a pain. So, I found myself in the following situation. If I used the pitch pipe and those two people joined in the singing, I was causing them to sin because the New Testament clearly teaches that if we engage in something we believe to be wrong it is sin. On the other hand, If I used the pitch pipe and they, for conscience sake, didn't join in the singing, I was hindering them from worshiping. I left the pitch pipe at home, where I would use it in practicing songs and just winged it during the worship service. Thankfully, there weren't many times that I really, really screwed up the pitch of a song badly.
Wow. Impressive that you really considered others before self. I respect that.
Re: Leading singing/Shape notes and hand movements.
Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:50 pm
by Moogy
zeek wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:57 pm
I had a pitch pipe and was trained to use it and would have but for one thing. At the congregation I attended there were two people who believed it constituted instrumental music in the worship.
My dad and a man from his congregation did not speak to one another for YEARS after they had a disagreement about whether use of a pitch-pipe was scriptural. Eventually, the other man came to my dad’s house and said he did “not want to go to hell” over this ongoing division, and could they resume being friendly with one another. My dad accepted. I don’t think either changed their mind about pitch-pipes, but they were no longer enemies.
During all these years, our family knew nothing about the disagreement and subsequent silent treatment.
I think my dad was on the pro-pitch-pipe side, but I can’t say for sure. Papa never used one himself when he lead songs (infrequently).
Re: Leading singing/Shape notes and hand movements.
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:47 am
by B.H.
you cant baptize people in swimming pools because they have chlorine and other chemicals in the water. the Bybul says you are to baptize in water and not chlorine also. you are adding to the word. you should baptize in lakes and rivers where there is no chlorine. ( oops dont mention the fish and crawfish pee and dissolved crap)
Re: Leading singing/Shape notes and hand movements.
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:48 am
by B.H.
you cant baptize people in swimming pools because they have chlorine and other chemicals in the water. the Bybul says you are to baptize in water and not chlorine also. you are adding to the word. you should baptize in lakes and rivers where there is no chlorine. ( oops dont mention the fish and crawfish pee and dissolved crap)
Re: Leading singing/Shape notes and hand movements.
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:06 pm
by Ivy
Ivy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:04 am
zeek wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:57 pm
Ivy said:
I had a pitch pipe and was trained to use it and would have but for one thing. At the congregation I attended there were two people who believed it constituted instrumental music in the worship. The Elders left it up to me to decide what to do about it. They didn't have a problem with it. I had a serious and deep conversation with each of the offended people and was convinced they were sincere and not just trying to be a pain. So, I found myself in the following situation. If I used the pitch pipe and those two people joined in the singing, I was causing them to sin because the New Testament clearly teaches that if we engage in something we believe to be wrong it is sin. On the other hand, If I used the pitch pipe and they, for conscience sake, didn't join in the singing, I was hindering them from worshiping. I left the pitch pipe at home, where I would use it in practicing songs and just winged it during the worship service. Thankfully, there weren't many times that I really, really screwed up the pitch of a song badly.
Wow. Impressive that you really considered others before self. I respect that.
But that said, i.e. that you did the right thing according to your conscience at the time...I have also seen situations where there were "phantom offendees" (I think I can credit Moogy for coining that term) who controlled how far the church could go spiritually. Many times we didn't know who they were; praycher would just tell us there were "those who were offended", so we couldn't do such and such thing.