Autonomous ... or not?

[williamray123]

I was just pointing out that whatever "autonomy" means, it does not require a complete separation and isolation (but it certainly can include isolation). So I pointed out some examples of interaction. If something makes sense to one congregation it might just as well make sense to another. Similarity does not disprove autonomy. 1972 Ford Pinto's were very similar in look and function, but they were still autonomous. But bolting on some aftermarket items or re-painting it yourself pretty much destroyed the notion of it being "stock" and likely voided the warranty.

Updated: Sorry, I was thinking about the 1970 Pinto

I get your point, but I just think it is hypocritical to preach autonomy over and over, but then try to tell the other "autonomous" groups how to interpret the bible. I got into it online with a CoC guy, and he claimed independent community churches are actually "denominations" if they choose to have a musical instrument in worship.

[onward]

CoC preaches AUTONOMY! over all. Each church is an island, with its Elders and Deacons independent of each other - completely! BUT... after preaching autonomy over and over, they proceed to tell every other group what they should do, how they should do it, and when they should do it.

How do they not see the irony of demanding autonomy with one breath, only to tell every other group in the world what they should be doing with the next breath. If every group is autonomous, they have no right to tell other groups what they should be doing or judging. But then again, that's just one of the many contradictions in their doctrine.

Autonomy works for me, as long as it's truly autonomous, but to interfere and pronounce judgement against another group of Christians far exceeds their in-house authority. Like so many CoC tribes, it's utterly impossible to accept even the slightest possibility that God could/would have believers in a church that doesn't have a sign reading "Church of Christ" on the lawn. Obviously, autonomy is a tough row-to-hoe when everyone in the world is wrong except the CoC. In other words, autonomy - YES, misusing autonomy - NO.

[onward]

Updated: Sorry, I was thinking about the 1970 Pinto

1970, 1972 Pinto ... makes no difference, their equally UGLY.

[Ivy]

Is being "autonomous" kind of like being a "political independent"? It's all well and good
until you want to have a pot luck or "love feast" and you have no one to invite.

[Ivy]

Updated: Sorry, I was thinking about the 1970 Pinto

1970, 1972 Pinto ... makes no difference, their equally UGLY.

...and they all explode when you hit them in the end.

[KLP]

This notion that autonomy means never having to say anything wrong about another place reminds me of this "safe space" thinking that is currently in fashion. Now I do not see the point in spending a lot of time telling the Baptist/RCC how wrong they are from the pulpit of a CofC, but pointing out flaws and errors and illogical stuff should not be considered a hate crime. People claiming to be Christians and following Christ can be rightly compared to the NT writings. Mormons claim to be a church of Christ but they are whack. Pointing out the silliness of Joseph Smith does not threaten one's autonomy.

One area I think autonomy is breached is in how and why a congregation accepts/rejects a person who has been "marked" by another congregation. When they blanket accept the authority of a couple of guys at another congregation over something in dispute then they are not autonomous IMO. What can happen is that the new congregation does not want to be drawn into the argument, so they think they are being fair by being "neutral" and requiring that before you join here you have to go get things cleared up at the old place. Of course this is not being neutral but is deferring (lack of autonomy) to the authority of the old place.

[williamray123]

I'm not saying autonomy is some sort of safe space. I'm just pointing out that those preaching autonomy so forcefully love to jump in and tell another autonomous group how to do what they do. Not saying it is a hate crime or something or even something major. I am just pointing out the irony.

And you said "but pointing out flaws and errors and illogical stuff should not be considered a hate crime." - This is makes me laugh *almost*. I wouldn't be "EX" CoC if I thought CoC had a "logical" theology. CoC contradicts themselves at every turn, and when faced with a verse that says the opposite of what they say, they say "that doesn't mean what it says". So I find the concept of a CoC bumpkin preacher pointing out "flaws", "errors" or "illogical stuff" in other's theology to be laughable.

Not saying they can't criticize others or shouldn't - just pointing out the irony in them doing so.

[onward]

This notion that autonomy means never having to say anything wrong about another place reminds me of this "safe space" thinking that is currently in fashion. Now I do not see the point in spending a lot of time telling the Baptist/RCC how wrong they are from the pulpit of a CofC, but pointing out flaws and errors and illogical stuff should not be considered a hate crime. People claiming to be Christians and following Christ can be rightly compared to the NT writings. Mormons claim to be a church of Christ but they are whack. Pointing out the silliness of Joseph Smith does not threaten one's autonomy.

Being autonomous certainly doesn't exclude "pointing out flaws and errors and illogical stuff" in other churches, but too often it's the vitriolic way it's pointed out that creates the problems. CoC adherents are quick to point the accusing finger at every perceived flaw, but God help you if you point the finger back. There's more than enough whacky stuff floating around out there, but a lot of it is between God and them, and our input seldom causes a ripple.

Autonomy is simply a means of self-control without interference from outside influences ... but, of course does not prevent whackiness in itself.

[KLP]

Agreed. I am making the point that wackiness, hypocrisy, unkindness, and time wasting do not undermine or disprove the notion of autonomy, which was the assertion of this thread. I think autonomy is overstated (or undermined) by some cofc folks...I just do not see that being vitriolic or focusing on the flaw of others actually undermines autonomy. Preaching about other denominations can certainly be a misplaced focus, perhaps bordering on an obsession, but that does not mean autonomy itself is lost or disproved.

oh and willray, have not considered that govts and corporations hire hackers and fraudsters for the expertise in order to identify other hackers and fraudsters. The Pharisees had all kinds of techniques to identify error in others even though they were corrupt themselves.